Episode 11: Women in Tech: Ellen Martin, Elissa Matthews, and Lynne Thompson -- Tales of Telecom and more!

Elissa and Ellen and me


Mon, 4/25 · 1:17 AM

1:03:40
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
womenpeopleinterviewlovejobhiredsoftwarealyssaworkcalledteachingsystemresumeat&tmovedfranorganizationmanagerbell labspoint

SPEAKERS
Speaker 2 (45%),
Speaker 1 (32%),
Speaker 3 (21%)
1
Speaker 1
0:24
Hi, and welcome back to the Storied Human. I'm really excited today because we have our group interview that finishes out the short series on women in tech. I have two women I adore I used to work with, who agreed to come and share the stories and some of the pain of working at actually going to college and majoring in a male dominated field, and then working in a pretty much male dominated field. But what came out in both of these interviews is that Telecom, even back then, was another world, there were more women. After a while there were a bunch of women and it was a special environment. So I'd love to talk and hear more about that. So today, we have Ellen Martin, and we have Alisa Matthews. And we're just going to chat, like you guys aren't even here. Like nobody's listening. That works. I think it's easy for us. I think it is. So let's begin. What I'd love to hear about is did you guys work together in Whippany, New Jersey?
1:25
No. Okay. No.
2
Speaker 2
1:27
Until nobody corner one liberty corner. Okay, what or software organization network software?
1
Speaker 1
1:36
And that's how I know you from? Yep. And I spent about four years there. I was trying to remember when it was I think it was 1993 to 1997. And I would have stayed longer. But that's a whole other story. Yeah, that was such a special place to me. I mean, I've worked a lot of places. A lot have been good, but not quite like that. Because of the people. Yeah, the culture. There was something going on there.
2
Speaker 2
2:02
It was the culture. I was there from 91 to 98. Give or take, but definitely it was partly the 90s anything was possible, but also partly the team for sure. Yeah. And then management. Anything is possible. There. Just the sense of, you know, any, you can do anything in software. And there was the money to back it up. So yeah, yeah. And the support. Well, go ahead. You can do anything in software with limitations. Yep. Well, the salespeople
2:36
will tell everyone you will do everything.
2
Speaker 2
2:42
Realigning text with audio
Yes, yes. Yeah. And there were a lot of women there and I was yeah, just gonna say I, I once heard someone propose a theory that, that I that that felt right. At least for telecom, in and of course, we were in Bell Labs and loosen at&t, which was the offshoot of AT&T LON, you know, Ma Bell, way back when in the 20s. Women were hired preferentially to work in telecom, because phone lines carry women's voices more accurately, and better, with less noise and less loss. So women speaking Hello Is this the number is personhood, yours speaking, is a much better voice than a man's voice. It's crisper, it's clear, it's easier to understand. So women, switchboard operators, which women telecom operators, became women supervisors, who became women line managers who became women, technical managers. So almost in who became essentially then women, management in the support organizations, and original initially in the 60s 70s 80s, the processes and software and tools and resources were considered support organizations. And so women and management just flooded into the business software support. And we saw that in the business, the business software support organizations, we saw it in the operations organizations. We saw it in the network operations center organizations, we saw it in software and technical sales. So women inside AT&T Women flooded. The software organization and AT&T preferentially hired women in software preferentially, in fact, because that then balanced out or The men they were hiring and hard still hiring in hardware and hardware. Yeah, that's
3
Speaker 3
5:06
unusual to be it was unusual to be a woman in hardware. But yeah, one of the things, one of the things that helped me get hired in 1982 was that they were actually actively looking for women in the technical ranks. And starting in, like the TA level, all the way up to MTS and beyond, they were actually looking to start staffing up our software. female presence, so it made it so that it was nice to work there. You know, it made it so that you didn't feel like you were one female in, in a room full of males.
1
Speaker 1
5:45
So definitely, I think it was different. I think it was ahead of other industries, because I've worked in other and I've, you know, I've had jobs in other industries, especially financial and banking it at least like 1015 years ago was still very traditional male dominated. It just didn't have that same feeling. I don't know what it is, but I think it might be what,
2
Speaker 2
6:10
there were women around. There were women all over the place. Yeah. It was a blast here.
6:15
Lovely.
2
Speaker 2
6:17
It that was that that was that was nice. That was good, especially since I was which I didn't which you and I mentioned Jaws a weaver functions a third. So we have
6:31
who really was you know,
2
Speaker 2
6:32
to have kind of a welcoming environment in which to make sure I mentioned her the road boot learn they taught my new tricks segment,
1
Speaker 1
6:40
how she came up truly came up through the ranks. She had worked for a TNT since she was like about 18 I think so she is a wonderful was, you know, still is a wonderful role model.
2
Speaker 2
7:16
technical integrity, yes. And technical women who didn't look at your cross side, when you said you were a math major, and not a design major.
7:30
Music I was a music major.
7:33
Isn't that cool? I'm picking on major music major.
3
Speaker 3
7:39
That said you guys want things I think that we need to keep in mind is that while the labs and AT and T was a supportive, mixed environment more diverse when we went out into the Otterbox into the regional regional companies, operating companies. Thank you because I'm old and I forget these things. Now I don't speak Telkom anymore. When you went out into the art box, it was male dominated it would quite often be Ellen. And a roomful of men.
2
Speaker 2
8:09
Yeah. And Teresa, by the way, was one Teresa Weaver, another friend of ours is  somebody who exactly came up through the ranks, right from being an operator and I think even a switchboard operator to operations to the line, stupid text to line supervisor to being a tech, you know, to being essentially a technical requirements analyst.
1
Speaker 1
8:35
And she navigated that world for a long time all men fluidly did
2
Speaker 2
8:39
she did so with grace and ferocity.
3
Speaker 3
8:43
ferocity is a good word or a fantastic word. But there really was her.
2
Speaker 2
8:48
And there were other women equally. I mean, we had a lot of women managers by at some point in the future. You get Fran Hennigan here who Oh, I love Fran one of the first women if not the first women woman department head in Bell Labs and she did so with cool Grace serene pressure under fire. Yep. At all times. There we have a lot of women around us that were
3
Speaker 3
9:16
reluctant. Yeah, we had we had department heads when I joined we had women depart and heads Yeah. Fran was one of them earn a Hoover was another one. Yeah. And so it was it was an environment that nurtured diversity isn't just oh, you're a woman. Okay, well, let's sit over there and tight. You know, that kind of thing. It wasn't that at all
2
Speaker 2
9:39
right? Yeah, let's do it. Women I mean, divert you that's a good word diversity. I mean, it was diversity of all kinds. Yes, was fine because we we what if it did not matter what your personal life or aspect was other rather than can you fit into the team? Are you a team player? Yeah. And can you do the work?
10:08
Can you contribute? Yeah. Can you?
2
Speaker 2
10:11
Can you deliver and do work? Well, you know, do you play well with other with the other kids?
1
Speaker 1
10:16
It was about the work. Yeah, very good. And the team, you know, you said hardware, and that was still male dominated. Elenin. You just brought back a huge memory of mine. When I worked. Before I came to Liberty corner, I worked way before I came to Liberty corner, I worked with a bunch of guys engineers on hardware stuff. And we had to understand we were still doing it really old fashioned. I was literally sticking pages of of Murray Hill had a huge typesetter printer, and we would send away. Yes. And we did all these, you know, fancy things that pages would come back and I would paste them up. I would paste up 150 pages on boards. So that was like an old world and that was on its way out. But I did that. And the men that were there. They were okay. But they were you could just tell the difference. You know, they were very much like, you know, hardware guys are just a little more. Not super social. Not super accepting. I just remember feeling. Okay, I can do this. You know, my personality can handle this. But never feeling totally comfortable. So yeah, right. That's part of why Liberty corner is so dear to my heart because I went through that hardware world and the micro electronics world later. Just different kinds of things.
3
Speaker 3
11:36
So I don't think you remember this person, Lynne. I think he was after he left prior to coming. But listen, do you remember Bill Hoyt?
11:48
Vaguely we didn't overlap
3
Speaker 3
11:50
in charge of systems administration? Yeah. Yeah. It actually was in charge of systems administration hit sent Alexander. I don't.
2
Speaker 2
12:00
I actually I did not know him from not in the same too. Okay. So it was a little wonky. But there were two system administrators. There were multiple system administration organizations. There were the Bell Labs comp centers. And they ran everything at Murray Hill, Whippany, hometown, Indian Hill. And, and in Columbus, OH, and micro, micro electronics out in Allentown, a little bit. That was one organization and I was in that organization. I was we were we were we I had come from Unix development into Unix support. There were some competing, small labs that we negotiated with. Yep, no point ran one of those small labs in with me. I negotiate or I'm gonna say, you know, I'm just Yeah, as a developer, he but I know the name from the fact that that was one of those compete those stippling Yes, comm center satellite mini comm centers that write up to Whippany comm center.
3
Speaker 3
13:21
It took many years for them to finally assimilate the Alamos Labs into the main thing that we're talking about. Still, I decided that it looked like fun to play in hardware. And Bill said to me, well come on over and I'll teach you everything. So for a while there I was, you know, the massive disk drives and stuff like that I was wielding those things around. Bill never said to me, No, you're a woman, you can't lift those things. I love that he would say to me, go over there and change that district. I don't know if you remember them. They were huge. So anyway, Bill taught me a lot about the hardware, I think it was very important because it was part of what I did, when I helped convert all the Otterbox onto a new set of systems, from the old systems, the 11, seven days on to the PDP. What was it? PDP 11? Thank you. It's been a long time. So anyway, it was one of the things that I did was knowing how to wield and work in a data center. And that's the reason I could work with those guys in the data centers in the box, y'all, and I didn't listen, I had no idea that you work in the same type of organization.
14:38
Wow, yeah.
14:40
I'm finding out all kinds of things about
1
Speaker 1
14:41
you. I know. I found out about stuff about you that I didn't know both of you. It's like kind of cool. Now Bill is an ally. Like that's the kind of person that puts, you know, moves people forward. You didn't care that you were a woman, he saw you had the interest. That's an ally that's being an ally and it's a lovely thing and we don't know afford without those people, so yay for him? Yeah, he was great. And generally, it was more like that in that world and that telecom world than it was in other worlds. Yes. Because I did have brief stints in other worlds and I never.
2
Speaker 2
15:16
Oh, yeah. I had I had a supervisor right before that, as a matter of fact, which is one of the reasons why sighs coming in. Because one of the reasons why I came over to Liberty corner was that I had a supervisor who was told by management that he had to hire a woman manager. And I saw his job ad didn't know this, applied for it, didn't hear from him, didn't hear from him really wanted the job. It sounded like a great job, I finally called him. And he basically hired me without interviewing me, because I was the only woman who'd followed up on the call so and he really didn't care what my skills were, as long as I was. i As long as I had two key attributes. And he basically treated me that way.
16:11
Yeah, that's not an ally.
2
Speaker 2
16:14
You want to talk to the staff meetings? Fine. I'd really prefer that you took notes. But you know, just and if you have something to say on not really addressed in one way or the other, you know, you can say it, you know, it's neither here nor there. And I finally I finally laughed. It was not a it was not a good place for women. He was.
3
Speaker 3
16:37
Yeah. Not a nurturing environment. For sure. It wasn't
2
Speaker 2
16:40
that it wasn't nurturing. It was actually a great project. And I loved my coworkers and I loved the project. Yeah. I didn't care if I was there or not. I mean, it's terrible. Yeah, it wasn't bad. It just wasn't anything. He just doesn't. Wasn't there
16:55
as far as he was. Why am I here? Yeah,
2
Speaker 2
16:58
yeah, I'm here. I'm literally here so that he can put a stamp on his song, you know, so he can check that box off. And so I did the best job I could do. But in the end, I think that the whole project was, let's put it this way. I'm a manager who has brings that approach to the table has a lot of other flaws. Yeah. That all of the other managers had to deal with. Yes, we, we, none of us like demand. And essentially, I left and shortly after that kind of all the other managers left.
17:36
And that's the statement. Yeah, they're making a
2
Speaker 2
17:38
statement when that happens. Yeah. Everybody. We all want. It was a it's a project was reasonable. But we all wanted a better job. Yeah. And more out of life than just showing up.
1
Speaker 1
17:49
Yep. Well, they do those polls, and they say money is important. But the top thing of what's important to you at work is always recognition. We want to be recognized. We want to you know, be appreciated our work.
3
Speaker 3
18:01
Well, exactly. And you don't want to be discriminated against because of your whether you're female or black, or Chinese or whatever. You don't want to be discriminated against or ignored because of those things. Right.
2
Speaker 2
18:15
Yeah. You don't want to be less than human. Right? I don't I want to be a person. I don't want to check on a on a checklist. That wasn't
3
Speaker 3
18:23
fair. Oh, yeah. Who was in US West when I was teaching the course that how to convert your systems in your data center. And the wind The room had, I would say more women in it than men. But the manager was male. Yeah. And when he walked in the room, everybody had been gathering and stuff. And I was getting ready up in the front and he walks in the room and he looks around. He says, okay, he says, so where's your colleague? What he said, Where's your colleague, Alan Martin? I said, No, no, Ellen Martin. My name is Ellen. And I'm going to be giving the presentation today. He goes, I thought you were alum. I said, No. And he says, Oh, I'm not sure this is going to work. I'm not sure this is going to work. And I said to him, Well, you know, I'm here. I'm teaching the class. And he says, Well, we'll see about that. So he went in, he called my then boss, who was Judy Louis, who does not suffer fools gladly. And very, very sweetly said to him, that's what you got. That's who's teaching the class? Why don't you just sit down and let her do her thing? Bye. Bye
19:31
now. Yes.
3
Speaker 3
19:35
Good. So I did. I taught a class it worked out great. And he, after the class was over, he came up and grudgingly said, well, it seemed like you didn't know what you were talking about. Wow. So thanks for having me to moment. Yeah, but I never had.
1
Speaker 1
19:53
I gotta tell you, I totally understand hardly ever had this. This. It's all him. Like, yeah, this guy would splain like, you have to be careful where the staples go in your magazine in this in the crease of the magazine, like how it goes together? Because it could cover something important like, Playboy and the
2
Speaker 2
20:14
belly button. Yeah. Yeah, that was his example.
1
Speaker 1
20:17
And he thought that was okay. And I'd be like, Oh my gosh, there would be something like that every day, every day, and comments about what I was wearing. And it, it gets to the point, and I don't think people talk about this enough, it gets to the point where they really believe that you're not as good as the guy. You know, he definitely perceives us differently. And honestly, you know, I'm not tooting my own horn, it was just we weren't that different. So that's my issue. I mean, I can almost take the stupid comments, but it indicates how you're looking at me. And that affects work.
2
Speaker 2
20:56
So I have to say, it's just as weird when it goes the other way. Um, I mean, yeah, I had an occasion or two, you know, an occasion where people assumed that I was there to take notes, or that I wasn't the coffee wasn't technical, get the coffee to you know, whatever, or that I wasn't technical or whatever. But it was a little weird, cuz you didn't quite know what to do. Okay. So you might want to cut this out when you edit it. But I was sent a couple of times, we're like, we'd be doing something and it'd be, you know, five guys in the room and me and we're all doing something. And somebody what 1.1 guy turned to me when Alyssa, how are you it up there? We're getting down to the short strokes. I mean, oh my god. A woman would never say anything like that.
3
Speaker 3
21:54
There was one time where he was obviously comfortable with you. But that means he thought it is
21:59
one of the guys, right? Yes, yes. Were
2
Speaker 2
22:01
they thinking you were one of the guys I was once when I was first became a supervisor. I was in a staff meeting, department meeting and Well, guys, and we had this one guy who was very close to retiring, and he used to sit in his chair leaning back in his chair with his feet on the table fat, you know, he looked like he was sleeping. And at one point, somebody said something, and he sat up. And he said something. And then he looked around the room. And then he leaned back and he put his feet up. And department had said, Would you care to expand on that? And he said, without even sitting up is I still shudder you said, Now I shot my water. I'm going back to sleep. Oh. Okay. I'm gonna realize everybody's looking at me. And so and the department head was so offended, much more offended than I was. And he wanted the guy to apologize to me. Yeah. And I'm like, I think that makes it even worse. In single doubt, but that wasn't directed towards me. And I'm being singled out for being a woman. And I'm not only singled out for being a woman, I'm singled out for being delicate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yes. Yeah. And, and I need to be protected. And that just was so wrong on so many counts. But what do you say, you know,
1
Speaker 1
23:35
you don't know what to do with that. Just so funny is too
23:39
funny. It was just it is
23:41
funny. It is funny.
3
Speaker 3
23:43
It's funny, in a way, but it's also kind of sad, because at any times we've had to deal with that. Yeah.
2
Speaker 2
23:49
And But definitely, well, you know, I was more offended by the department head telling you guys to me that I was by the fact that the guy forgot to be polite, or lady, which is like in common. I think that's what it is. At some point. People forgot that it was mixed company. Yeah. But
3
Speaker 3
24:11
you know what, even if it wasn't even if it wasn't next, anybody in the room could have been should have been offended by that. He was just being a jerk.
2
Speaker 2
24:18
Yeah, yeah. Well, but an equal opportunity chirk?
1
Speaker 1
24:22
Right. And it's not like he commented on you or said something about you. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
2
Speaker 2
24:33
If somebody else in the room was offended by his language, it was up to them to say so yeah, it wasn't up to the department had to speak on my behalf.
1
Speaker 1
24:43
Yeah, that's true. That's a little strange trip. Yeah, I would be I would have a hard time with that.
2
Speaker 2
24:47
And and to this day, I don't think that but that's the way it was. Yeah, they did. The guys did things that they didn't realize was wrong. No.
25:00
They were being I thought they were
2
Speaker 2
25:01
like they were being and what they were doing was riding to the rescue. Yes, yes, yes. A situation that didn't need rescuing Well,
3
Speaker 3
25:11
or like I would walk into a meeting, you know, in Bell Atlantic, for example. And I'd walk in and be a roomful of men, they would say, Oh, that one's here. Behave yourselves, guys. Oh, that makes you feel funny. You know, it didn't make me feel funny. I laughed at them. And I said, Yep, you better watch yourself.
25:33
But the fact down.
1
Speaker 1
25:38
Listen, story reminds me of how uncomfortable or trying to trying to respond. Like they know what that guy said was wrong. But then they over respond. Like Alyssa said, you know, the whole thing is very awkward. And a little sad, you know?
3
Speaker 3
25:54
Yeah, I think part of it was also and you can't blame that plane. The fellas many of many of them didn't know how to behave. Right? Right. Right. Didn't know. Well, should I be standing up? Should I be hoping this woman to sit down? Or should I be paying for Lauren? Instead of just saying, Okay, this is a colleague, and here's a colleague and I would just got to move on. Yeah, you know, I mean, and behave yourself. Right? Behave yourself with decency and politeness.
1
Speaker 1
26:23
The good news is, I'm at Verizon right now. And it's like a world away. It's just totally great. I don't know if it's because the Erickson guy came over Hans. The, I just never saw it. So progressive, and so accepting and just really supportive of women and really supportive of, you know, not just talking the talk about diversity, but really making it happen. And people just, people just treat other people like people. It's sort of like what I dreamed of back then. You know, like, right, your pockets of weirdness with men?
3
Speaker 3
26:59
It's been a long time coming live. Yes. Yeah. It really has.
2
Speaker 2
27:02
And I don't know, I would love to see statistics, but has, does anybody does it look to anybody like women? Are we losing women in tech? I'm seeing fewer women. It's actually have I moved or have the women? Have I moved there has everybody else moved? That's interesting,
3
Speaker 3
27:25
too. It'd be interesting to ask Jen about that. Because you know, Jen is still a woman in tech. Well, my daughter
2
Speaker 2
27:31
in law, so I heard it, I mean, a woman owned company, but I see very few. Yeah,
1
Speaker 1
27:35
I'm a woman in tech, I'm working in the AI and D that artificial intelligence and data modeling. And there's, there's a bunch of women, a bunch of women aren't our boss's boss is a woman. Well, this is what I heard from our boss's boss, and she's really active in you know, stem women in STEM, she's very supportive. She said into, and I'm gonna get the dates, right. In 2000, we made up 17%, of the of STEM workers. And this this year, we make up I think, 26%. So she said, it's an it's a jump. It's what she said, it's not enough. It's not enough. And I want to, you know, we have to encourage young women to go into STEM and to keep pushing.
2
Speaker 2
28:20
I was teaching, I was teaching programming and System Engineering at Raritan Valley for for a few years. And I would routinely have a class of 20 or 25 students, of which three were women. Really, I think that was a three women was probably my high point. And it was a system engineering class, three women, instead of 20 people and three women,
3
Speaker 3
28:49
it could have been a function of the college because what I'm seeing is we get a cliff on to Carson University up in Potsdam, New York, and got his engineering degree, back when I was a music major. We get magazines from them. And there's a tremendous number of women that are in in that school, and all kinds of technical, technical orientations. And it's not just it's not just computers, it's also engineering and all the rest of that stuff. And math does seem like that are moving in, but it's still let's face it, it's still male dominated. I mean, like,
2
Speaker 2
29:29
maybe sit less, fewer in engineering, but more in biochem.
1
Speaker 1
29:34
Recessed biotech is big now and they push young women to go there.
2
Speaker 2
29:39
Statistics accounting accounting, used to not ever see a woman accountant, and now they're all yo, there's a time it was doing math. She was a bookkeeper.
29:48
Yeah, right.
1
Speaker 1
29:50
There's more. There's more women going to college just there's many more women going to college. So that's actually
3
Speaker 3
29:57
I read a statistic recently that women make Have more than 50% in some classes now. Yeah. And so that's very good.
2
Speaker 2
30:05
And but not quite 50% graduation?
30:11
Oh, yeah, right.
2
Speaker 2
30:12
Yeah. More than women have a higher dropout rate, but not much. Not much. It doesn't go from like, you know, 70% Incoming to 30%. Graduating, it goes from 51% Incoming to 48%. Graduating.
1
Speaker 1
30:27
Right. So it was just steady. And my my hunch is that we got to the 26%. Quickly in the last decade, like I think there was a leap. You know, I think it was, it wasn't an even uphill thing. From 2000 to 2022. I think there's been a real I know, just from having kids in high school, like, seven years ago, the emphasis was, Oh, you want to go into biotech. So everybody was focused, you know, they said stem, but they meant biotech. That's like a big thing now. Yeah. And one, one young woman who graduated with Katherine did go really far and loves it. So yay. And I want to see more of that, you know?
3
Speaker 3
31:05
Yep, it does. It does seem that there's still women going into things like systems engineering, and software and development and that sort of thing. And I think that it's, it's, we actually help break the ground in our generation.
31:21
I like the idea of that. Yeah.
31:23
Yeah, true. Yep.
1
Speaker 1
31:26
Again, this supportive atmosphere, I just don't even think I fully appreciated it. Well, I had it. And then as time went on, I would go back look in the static the back and say, Boy, we had a good, you know,
3
Speaker 3
31:38
we actually we actually did, we had some very fine management in at Liberty corner. And I do think it did foster the supportive roles that the management management played. And I had some extremely good women, role models, but also some men that were very, very good, right? I can't We can't just say it was
2
Speaker 2
32:00
women. They not only supported us, they supported each other. Yes, yes. There. There. It was clear that above the the management chain above us was a team. And I think that went all the way up to through Ingram and bla bla, you know, it went all the way up, that's very powerful, is that the department heads were fighting with each other or fighting with upper management there, there just seemed to be whether, you know, everybody seemed to come together if it wasn't a consensus, it was at least agreement, and then the entire place move moved forward. As a team.
3
Speaker 3
32:39
Yes, I think that was one of the reasons that I spent 20 years, I spent 20 years in the same organization. I mean, we change companies three times, but my 20 years, in the same organization, before,
1
Speaker 1
32:56
when you talk about, like how people usually don't, what I saw, when I hear you say that everybody acted as a team, and were supportive of each other. What I saw was creativity being unleashed, I saw people excited about their work. I was in meetings where people had these really exciting, creative solutions. They were allowed to think outside the box. So there's this whole other like, wonderful benefit, you get, like workwise, I thought there was like productivity and creative solutions abounded. And they don't abound in a place where, you know, there's a different kind of tension or there's not as much support. So it was such a win win, right?
2
Speaker 2
33:34
So busy protecting themselves that they don't ever stick their neck out enough to make us to make a a slightly crazy suggestion.
3
Speaker 3
33:43
Things. One of the things that was a shock to me, after we were forced retired in 2001, from loosened, one of the things that when I went out and got contracted Merck, for example, it was a shock to me that there wasn't that environment. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
34:00
That Pharma is different. Yeah. And they hold on to the information they don't. They're very strategic. A lot of these places they're not going to share with you. Because they're, you know, they have their valuable information. And they are not everyplace but often it's more like
3
Speaker 3
34:15
that. Yes, it is. So we did have a very special community. I thought
1
Speaker 1
34:20
we did. I found something close to that in several. I actually was hired by j&j Four times. And they are wonderful. They have, and you know, one day I did go out and there's this huge credo. They're their credo on the wall. And that, you know, they come from a family, their original founding family, and they've had their issues. I know they've had their issues and lawsuits and stuff, but I have to say, there's like a set of values in that credo, that really, I mean, I'm not naive, but it kind of moved me that they would put that really big on the wall and that you'd read it every day. And I felt it in in three different locations. I was worked. And they were really, it was almost as nice as at&t There was like a family feeling. And there was a lot of support. And again, a lot of women, there's a lot of women at j&j. And they're very supportive of women and family. You know, they have a daycare on site, most of the places, and they have a lot of like, programs that support women. And I think and men, you know, they have a wonderful health and wellness center because that's their, you know, their business. So I just want to give a shout out to J&J because they treated me really well. They're another one that if you've worked for them once they want you back. They don't have to teach you all that stuff all over again. Verizon is like that, too. I've been there four times. Like, oh, yeah, we'll hire her. She knows.
2
Speaker 2
35:47
When I went, when I left Bell Labs, I went to a really good place that had some or financial and organizational issues, but team wise, work wise, it was. It was it was pretty good. They, you know, they had their issues. But um, yeah, absolutely. The, I guess I learned that when I left there, I certainly learned in looking at new jobs. What to look for. Yeah, you know, and and I remind the kids that I talked to you, I'm especially when I was teaching, when you go for a job interview, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you, because you don't want to grab a nail job and then say, I hate working here. Yeah, you it takes some time, and you're gonna you're gonna make mistakes. But you want to at least go into the interview thinking is this is this? Is this a place? I want to work? Try to see if they want me and do I want them and you'll get it wrong sometimes. But yeah, you gotta at least ask the question.
3
Speaker 3
37:05
That's a very good point. That's a very, very good, that's really good.
2
Speaker 2
37:09
Yeah. Now you can go too far. I interviewed somebody for a job working for me at my current position. And he basically his first question, you know, interview talk, talk, talk to Otago said, Do you have any questions? And he said, Yes. You said, I have a question. How is working for you going to improve my resume? Well, I, you know, what? It's not as if this interview was going all that? Well, to begin with? I don't think it is. What can you do for me? I mean, it's a reasonable question, sort of, it's sort of get
37:52
it was it's a little, it's a little cocky.
2
Speaker 2
37:54
It's it's, and it was basically like, the way he asked it was basically I really haven't been paying attention to anything you've been saying about the job? Just been waiting for my chance to find out what's in it for me. Yeah. Like that. Yeah. Chemistry is not there. So.
1
Speaker 1
38:19
And it's hard when you're, you know, you work for a smaller company. Now. I mean, it has to be right. You know, you can't run somewhere. I mean, you got you guys depend on each other. But this latest job is like a gift from heaven, because I have an old fashion recruiter who matches like, almost like a matchmaker, matches you with a manager. And that's like, you know, hardly anyone does that anymore. Like she has a relationship with my boss. And she knows what he's like. And she, she knows me, she took the time to know me. And we match so well, that she just said, Oh, you'd be great at this. And, you know, I told Mike to expect like, it was the first job I've ever had first interview where it really wasn't an interview. It was like, oh, yeah, you're here, you know.
39:00
And she was kind of the way it was when you interviewed inside
1
Speaker 1
39:04
Bell Labs. Yeah. It was like that, wasn't it? Yeah, it was it. This was a lovely gift, because I'm not going to have a lot more jobs. And I'm enjoying it so much. And I do a million different things. And he really respects my abilities, and takes me seriously and he doesn't, he's pretty much hands off. Like I just sometimes I'll, I'll I am him. And I'll say, Oh, well, did you want me to do this? I forgot to tell you about that. He goes, Oh, I don't worry about you. Which I thought was so nice.
3
Speaker 3
39:31
I think I think that it's great if when you're going to retire to go out on a high note,
1
Speaker 1
39:36
I think so I really feel fortunate. And it's, it's absorbing, it's artificial intelligence. And it's, I knew nothing about modeling. I mean, I knew vaguely what it was, but I didn't really know. I'm not an algorithm person. I know data modeling is great. And it's fascinating to me, and some of what we have to do some of our work is to try to get the bias out of stuff. Created by old algorithms. So the AI runs these models, but they're based on old algorithms and they come out biased. You know, like, our most famous example is, this is a great example. Somebody high up at Apple, he got a credit card offer. And it was for a very high initial balance. And his wife, the next day got the same offer. And her balance was way low. And they have very similar positions. And he, you know, he called the company and said, What are you doing? You know, it's like a famous example. I'm not sure if it was Citibank or chase it was it started with a C. So that started this whole thing of reevaluating what are you know, what data are we looking at? And what, what are we plugging in, and I just, I love it. I have to say, I love it. I never thought I would love it. But I do, because it has like this human side to it. It's really interesting.
3
Speaker 3
40:52
When you're, when you're late in your career, it's it's neat to be able to learn something new. And that was one of the things that happened to me when I went back and worked at AT&T. That's such a great point. And I was a scrum master. And I learned how to be Scrum Master. I started learning all these new tools and stuff like that right before I finally retired. Yeah. And then that was, that was really kind of a fun thing to do. Because one of the things I think I told you in my interview is that you never get bored doing this. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
41:24
That was sort of why I love this job. It's like a million things every day.
2
Speaker 2
41:27
Every day, I have to say, I mean, it's not just before you retire, or at the end, speaking to the audience, you know, I've whatever age when I, for example, left that job where that manager had the district was such an idiot. And I was, I was just leaving, I called a lot of people and said, I'm leaving management. And I'm, you know, when I'm stepping down, I don't want to be a supervisor anymore. I want to go back to being a, you know, a developer. Do you have any openings if you don't have any openings? Do you know anybody who does? And one of my department heads said, I didn't You didn't love being a coder, a developer and just a plain old vanilla algorithm developer. Describe your perfect job. I said, Honestly, my perfect job. I, I love learning. And I love communicating. And I love helping other people. And I love interfacing with technical information. I gotta say, my perfect job is somewhere where I can sit with my feet on the desk, read memos, write memos, and drink coffee. He said, that's called us system engineer. He said, Let me get back to you. I think I got a lead. That is hysterical. And three people called me and sad. There's this woman named Fran Henig. And she's looking for a system engineer who speaks French. She's willing to train you. And so I called Fran Henoch. I said, Hi, I'm Elissa Matthews. She said, My phone hasn't stopped ringing. She said, everybody wants me to hire you. Oh, and it just worked. It really was the right job for me. How about your gotta get to the point, you know, like that? What call when you know what it is? And right, you got to know what your skill set is not what your knowledge set. My skill set is read and absorb fast. Mush it around and spit it back fast. And it doesn't matter who I'm talking to.
3
Speaker 3
44:00
Wasn't it? You didn't do whatever. Great to sonder on that first AI project?
2
Speaker 2
44:04
I did i i do. Yeah. Yeah, I did have support. I did the male support for the for his outro
3
Speaker 3
44:10
Yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, boy that my snaps fired. I remembered his last Yeah, yeah.
44:19
It is hard to remember sometimes.
2
Speaker 2
44:22
It's a while ago, but yeah, I don't know if what color's your parachute is still in print. But man that was such an insightful book it did outdated and old fashioned and clunky. But once you get the idea that you got to look at yourself and ask, what skills do I have and like to use? What skills give me satisfaction? Not what tech not what knowledge areas? Right? Right.
1
Speaker 1
44:55
And what do you like to do? I like to learn. I like to learn and then tell You have exciting what I learned is
2
Speaker 2
45:03
I like to invent crap. And then tell people you know, once said to somebody, you know, I put it on top of my resume my skill, my outstanding skill is I can bang that square peg into that round hole. Oh, yeah, how I did it? Well, I'm glad you say Elon
3
Speaker 3
45:20
taking stuff like Elissa's square peg in the round hole, and going out and teaching the people how to do it actually.
1
Speaker 1
45:30
I'm like, the unofficial teacher of everything. Like on my team, I'm just the unofficial, like everybody goes, Lynne knows that go to her. Like, I'm just, that's where I've settled happily, like I'll if there's some weird change in his system, like we have this literally Gothic, impossible timesheet system that we just moved to, from the totally logical and understanding understandable Fieldglass we move to something that is like a nightmare, right? So I got on it. And I learned it and it sucks. And I wrote a user guide. And everybody's everybody that comes in, says, oh, yeah, Lynn knows that talk to her. And that's just the way it is. You know, I do that with Confluence. I do that with, and I love that. So yeah, it's like, what you what lights you up? Like, what do you really like? I like to help people I really do. Yep, me too. That's like the part of it.
3
Speaker 3
46:18
I think, too, that once you find out what that is that you really like to do? Go after it. Enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, there's a place
2
Speaker 2
46:26
for it. There's ever it is there's a that you can, if there isn't a place for it, you can find a place isn't if there isn't a place for it, where you are now you can find
3
Speaker 3
46:36
a place for it. Exactly. I agree. I think that, that people need to keep that once I realized that. Really, I wasn't going to change the world. I just wanted to be able to enjoy the world. And enjoy where I was working and enjoy the people I worked with. Yeah, you have to get past that. I wasn't going to be the vice president of whatever. Yeah, then I could sit back and enjoy what I was doing. Yeah.
2
Speaker 2
47:03
I think people bouncing around and move it around us is so much more acceptable than it was when we were Oh, it is we can if you you know if you went to work for a TNT or IBM or j&j, you were there till they carried you at first. Right? Are they? Because they weren't they weren't kicking people out, you know, too much in those days,
3
Speaker 3
47:28
kicking out until 2001. Yeah. Kicking
47:31
in later.
47:33
Yeah. Yeah.
2
Speaker 2
47:35
I mean, I'm sure there were. There were layoffs in the, you know, the 70s.
3
Speaker 3
47:41
Where none of us know. Well, I'll tell you when I joined in the 80s. It didn't happen. Yeah, it didn't happen much. Yeah. No, it didn't happen in the 80s. But I did. The day that I joined Bell Labs. It was September 1 1982. And I believe that was the day. Two days later, they announced the first divestiture. Yeah, and I remember saying to people, what's the divestiture? Yeah, and they said, it's not good.
48:09
Yeah, that was those were two years
3
Speaker 3
48:11
of the old AT&T Before divestiture happened in 1984.
1
Speaker 1
48:15
Yeah, I was. I was editing FCC filings. I was helping to edit those. Yeah, it was a changing world. I was at Bedminster. Yeah, definitely. I'd love to go look at that map, that giant network map of the United States. I just, I'm nerdy enough to love that stuff. I just, I love that stuff. Remember to I started working at Bedminster and I had to read engineering and operations and systems
2
Speaker 2
48:39
engineering and operations in the Bell System have one? Do it's on the shelf. Love it. You still have it? I do.
1
Speaker 1
48:47
And there's a lot of versions, we saw a whole bunch of it all will be cleaned out. But my my brother said What the heck are you reading that book for I was sitting in the kitchen and there's this big fat book. And I said, I pointed to the phone on the wall. And I said, Didn't you ever want to know how that worked? And he goes, No.
3
Speaker 3
49:06
No, that book was neat. It really was.
2
Speaker 2
49:09
Oh, all right. And and the letters came up backwards. You know what I'll take? I'll take a picture of it. And I'll send you a picture of it. Love. Oh, yeah. Cool. posted on the feed.
49:21
I used to love that book.
1
Speaker 1
49:23
Yeah, I did too. And there were a lot of devotees of that book at iconectiv When I did my swan song at a telecom that reminded me the old days was I connected I was there for three years. And we had to clean out at one point, you know, and I couldn't believe how many versions how many editions?
2
Speaker 2
49:42
Yeah, this isn't my original my original was the old 1976 Yeah. 78 bloom. That's the why had big blue bell on it. Yes, this one I got and who knows where that one ended up. This one was one I got a number of years later. and just refreshed it.
50:03
Hang on to that it's a relative. Yeah, yeah.
1
Speaker 1
50:06
Yeah. So I would like to know, do you guys have any advice for young women or people entering tech? Like, what would you? What helped you the most? What would you suggest to them? What should they look out? For?
2
Speaker 2
50:21
What? For what we said before? Yeah, that what your skill set is not what your knowledge area is. And then make your skill set your safe place. If you're good, good writer, you can write about chemicals, or rockets, or pet food. If you're a good mathematician, you can do the algorithms for chemical explosions, or rocketry, or dosage of pet food per weight of cat. If you look more and less, even less technical than that, do you like helping people? Do you like teaching? Do you like talking? Do you like learning? Do you like, what is it about what makes what gives you? You know, like, cleaning out your closet? What sparks joy? What makes a what makes an assignment fun? And then figure out how to package that and offer it to an employer.
3
Speaker 3
51:38
I like yeah, there's more to it than just the stuff that you know how to do. You need to understand, and sometimes like, in my case, I didn't, I didn't know when I joined that what I really wanted to do was be a systems engineer and go out and talk to the customers. I love that. But it took me about four years to figure out. I don't like sitting behind this computer and writing code.
2
Speaker 2
52:03
And I liked the other side of it. I liked going out. I like becoming a system engineer and going out and talking to the developers. Not the best. And I want
3
Speaker 3
52:13
it to come. I would I would talk to the customers get that stuff and then come back and talk to you. And you'd go to developers. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, once Yeah. Once you do that, once you figure that out, then then you're golden. Yeah, and I liked that. Bring it out.
1
Speaker 1
52:28
I like the premise, though. You should enjoy yourself. I like what you're both saying. It should be good. It should be fun.
2
Speaker 2
52:34
It should be it should. It should, it should meet your needs as well as the, but also never be afraid to say, um, I don't know how to do that. But I can learn on the quiller. I love that number one in a meeting, or even an interview? I don't know. But I can find out. Exactly. I don't know that I find out. But I know the guy that knows.
3
Speaker 3
52:59
And that's, that's huge. Because so many times people think that they have to have all the answers. And they don't Yes.
53:05
And they make it
1
Speaker 1
53:07
wrong, especially now they they pack these jobs. You know, I've been a contractor for a while. And I've interviewed about a billion times. And I can tell you the the positions, they just want the world. You know, they just pack it with everything in the world. And I got really good at interviewing and the secret to interviewing is extremely simple. And it's so dumb, but it's true. Be yourself totally yourself. And when they ask you a question,
2
Speaker 2
53:34
take your mini golf balls, can you fit into a school bus? I mean, there are two kinds of trick questions, right? One kind of trick question is, how do you think how many golf balls fit into a school bus? I have no idea. However, a golf balls about it. Let's assume it's if you know how to figure it out an inch by an inch cube. I know how long the school bus is in inches. And I know how wide and I know how far we'll high and I multiply the length times width times depth and that's how many couples fit and if your inch and a quarter you divide by you know an inch and a quarter cubed you Yeah, the other one is the personality trick questions? Yeah, you were a shoe. If you were a pair of shoes with my my nephew got that one on a job.
3
Speaker 3
54:25
I never got that garbage and every pair of shoes what would you be? I did get? Well, you are a music major. Why do you want to work in computers now? Oh, and that one was that one was easy to answer because basically, music is the same as as computers. You put the right stuff in at the beginning and you get a beautiful song and music. You put the right stuff and again theater right coding computer and you get what you're looking for. You're saying difference? I got hired? For sure. So my trick questions that they ask
1
Speaker 1
54:58
right? Yeah. My comment about being yourself, I really mean it. Because if you try to give them what they want to hear, and it's not your real self, then they're hiring the fake you. You get there, you don't fit in. It's not fun. So I learned that I give them exactly what I am. If they don't hire me then that they don't want the real me. Right, right. It's an honest thing. It's a real thing. And what I what I really learned was when they ask you a question, and I tell everybody, this, especially young people, take a moment to answer like, it's so nerve nervous, and you're nervous, and you're babbling, maybe just take a beat, close your mouth, think about what they asked you, and really answer it. And that's what I do. And if I don't know it, like Elissa said, I tell them I don't. I said, Well, you know, I was familiar with someone doing that, but I never did it myself. But I bet I could learn it or you know, I just say like, Oh, I know a little about that. But I never say like, oh, yeah, I've done that. Or, you know, just No, no law, I've
55:55
done anything,
1
Speaker 1
55:57
right, or I've done something similar. And basically, when we get to the end of the interview, they just feel like this woman told me what she really can do. She didn't fake it. She didn't go on and on. Like, that's what gets you hired. Most people get that, right, they get that what they get is I can count on this person to be real at work to do what she says she's going to do, because they're really rehearsing you for how you're going to be at work. It's so important to not bad is a really good point. Yeah, very good point. Like, how do I feel with her, you know how to do it. And so I feel like with young people, they're told all this stuff, right? Like, and not just young people and say these fake Well, yeah, if you've especially if you've worked a long time in one place, my friend is dealing with that my friend Robin, she was my first interview. And she had a heck of a time trying to get back in because she had been in Data Management at this one company for 34 years. So the job scene is different job searching is different.
2
Speaker 2
56:59
Yeah, I think it's new, not new, or returning. Or even if you've been good for a while and you just want to change your mindset, you're just some aspect of your working persona
3
Speaker 3
57:14
is new. But I think another important thing to remember is, if you've worked in the same place for a very long time, your resume will reflect that place that you worked for a very long time. One of the things that had to happen when we were forced retired in 2001. Was that we all had resumes that were internal Bell Labs. Yes. So it's all Bell Labs speak. You know, I had to translate the resume needed to be on at anted. Yep, until I went to interview for at&t again. And then I had to re 18 T it again.
57:49
Yeah, I think you have to take it out.
3
Speaker 3
57:51
That's a really good point out because somebody in an insurance company doesn't understand what RBT is. And like
1
Speaker 1
57:57
what you call stuff, right? And right, what I noticed is when we got laid off, originally were both laid off in 2018. And they offer these services where you go, and you've you get some counseling about your resume and stuff. And I said, No, thank you, because I pretty much know how to do that. But Rich, you know, rich hadn't been out of work for a while. And so he went and he did that. And they teach you a little too much of this stuff. And they teach young people there's too little too much of this. Here's how you should answer this. And here's how you should answer that. When my my call to action is be be like be you know, be Ellen, be Elissa, be Lynne, show them. What you're offering as corny as it sounds like yep. When I and I didn't get to that overnight. I went through lots of interviews where I was nervous, right, so what you're supposed to say in that classic one is, what's the what's the worst thing you've ever gone through? Or what's the most difficult thing?
58:51
Yeah, what's what's your worst
58:53
feature? What's your worst personalities? What
3
Speaker 3
58:55
is the worst thing that that you do? Oh, I don't do anything bad.
2
Speaker 2
59:03
I I'm not naming names on the air. But the worst question I ever had. And but it turned out to be so easy to answer. Somebody said to me, why do you get paid so much? Because I'm good. I'm a grown up. I'm a because I'm a grown up. And I'm not gonna come and whine about you know, that little bit but you know, whatever. But it it had I was coming off of my first round as a supervisor, my first supervisory job. And I had cut that whole job it continued to astonish me at how the things people came to me with like, you know, Jack's been smoking in the office while I'm sorry, but we don't have a no smoking policy here. This was 100 years ago. He's entitled to smoke in the office. Well, I don't like it. Well tell him why are you telling May there's nothing I can do about it. So, so eventually we separated them. We put them into different offices, okay. But then Jack was smoking in the printer or his office was next to the printer room. So we'd light a cigarette smoking in his office, then he'd go pick up a printout, and she'd come to me and she'd go, Jack's been smoking in the printer room, and they're they're gearing again, like I said, we don't have a no smoking policy here. I cannot tell him not to smoke. I said, my best advice to you is take them up behind the cafeteria and o'clock and one. And she did. Oh, no. said that it would be Oh. No, no, how much paperwork HR had to do.
1:00:50
Oh, my gosh, she thought you were serious.
2
Speaker 2
1:00:55
No, she didn't think I was serious. But once she actually did it, she figured she can palm it off on me. When this interview said to me, why, why do you get paid so much was like because I'm a grown up in the room?
1:01:12
I think that's an easy question. I get paid so much, because I'm good.
1:01:18
It's the going rate for somebody who knows. But there you
2
Speaker 2
1:01:20
go. That's it. That's exactly right. Because I'm worth it.
1:01:25
Yep, I'm good.
1
Speaker 1
1:01:28
How can I say thank you. This was so much fun. I think people will learn a lot about what it was like, and hopefully pick up some tips for how to move forward. You know how to how to make connections, how to get through an interview. It was just fun. And we didn't tell one story about TW.
2
Speaker 2
1:01:48
No. I thought we did. We did mention a little bit. We mentioned her a little bit. We didn't mention too many other people.
3
Speaker 3
1:01:59
in my interview with you. Yeah, you too. Yep. But my favorite thing, reason I knew elbows.
1
Speaker 1
1:02:06
My favorite thing she ever said was she was in a meeting and a bunch of developers were swearing they could make this date, right. It was like no problem. We can make it we can make it and she waited and she waited. And at the end they said well, what do you think and Teresa said "Nine women cannot have a baby in one month." (Laughter)
1
Speaker 1
1:02:19
I'd like to thank you for listening to the story of humans interview and the end of our tech women's series. It was so much fun talking to Elissa and Ellen. I think we could have talked a lot longer. But I really appreciate both of them sharing really valuable memories and career tips. And I wanted to just thank you again for listening. So it's the story human. If you have a story, please don't hesitate to reach out on Instagram at LThompson_574. Or you can check out our Facebook group the Stoeied Human, it's public, you can just ask me to join and I'll put you in there. Until the next time. Take care
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